Super Smash Bros. Megathread - official discord

[maplelink64]

I smash weekly so

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[Char]

tier lists are always cancer; no exception

Why? Does the idea that over 50 characters are not in perfect balance bother you somehow?
I don't understand why some people are completely opposed to tier lists. It doesn't cause characters to become better, it's just "these character's traits combined with the game mechanics and how well they can deal with other characters puts them about here in relation with the other characters".
Do you think that so many characters could be equally balanced such that every character is on equal footing with every other character? Of course not! It's impossible. Especially when the game balance was probably not designed for competitive play.
Not only that, but certain character traits are just naturally at a disadvantage against others. A slow, close-ranged character can be outspaced by projectiles more easily than a fast or longer-ranged character.

Whatever, I probably shouldn't have wasted my time on this post and then risk getting as a response.

[DestroyerOfBlocks]

do not feel bad as if it was just a prank bro at least you contributed to discourse on the topic and others may learn from you silently

[Daswiruch]

Why? Does the idea that over 50 characters are not in perfect balance bother you somehow?
I don't understand why some people are completely opposed to tier lists. It doesn't cause characters to become better, it's just "these character's traits combined with the game mechanics and how well they can deal with other characters puts them about here in relation with the other characters".
Do you think that so many characters could be equally balanced such that every character is on equal footing with every other character? Of course not! It's impossible. Especially when the game balance was probably not designed for competitive play.
Not only that, but certain character traits are just naturally at a disadvantage against others. A slow, close-ranged character can be outspaced by projectiles more easily than a fast or longer-ranged character.

Whatever, I probably shouldn't have wasted my time on this post and then risk getting [im g]http://i.imgur.com/JFL3Z5g.png[/img] as a response.

i completely disagree with this post because i believe that it all boils down to skill and tier lists don't mean stuff when it comes to skill
hypothetical: ganondorf is absolute top tier whilst villager is considered to be absolute bottom
player 1 is stuff with ganon, but plays him anyways
player 2 is villager's main in which he has had many hours of experience with
who's going to win? 99% chance that player 2 will win, unless player 1 accidentally does something that forget's player 2 in the ass

Not only that, but certain character traits are just naturally at a disadvantage against others. A slow, close-ranged character can be outspaced by projectiles more easily than a fast or longer-ranged character.

you're half right with this
tier lists would have to test each character vs each character to see which one is disadvantaged against the other between top-skilled players
again, skill is everything

[ultimamax]

i completely disagree with this post because i believe that it all boils down to skill and tier lists don't mean stuff when it comes to skill
hypothetical: ganondorf is absolute top tier whilst villager is considered to be absolute bottom
player 1 is stuff with ganon, but plays him anyways
player 2 is villager's main in which he has had many hours of experience with
who's going to win? 99% chance that player 2 will win, unless player 1 accidentally does something that forget's player 2 in the assyou're half right with this
tier lists would have to test each character vs each character to see which one is disadvantaged against the other between top-skilled players
again, skill is everything

Tier lists are not purported to be "A low tier cannot win against a character of higher tier"

They're built on the notion that between two players of the same skill / level of effort, the higher tier one will probably win. That's all they're for. Yes you can theoretically beat someone's ass with Ness in Melee; good luck getting anywhere with that.

[Daswiruch]

Tier lists are not purported to be "A low tier cannot win against a character of higher tier"

They're built on the notion that between two players of the same skill / level of effort, the higher tier one will probably win. That's all they're for. Yes you can theoretically beat someone's ass with Ness in Melee; good luck getting anywhere with that.

i've played melee once at a birthday party so i can't say anything on that matter but i'm ranting about smash4, not melee, brawl, or 64

The concept is the same. There are stuffty garbage characters in Smash 4 too.

i was never talking about just absolute trash characters

I think people hate Tier Lists because of the moronic sheep who follow them, despite the fact that they don't apply to you. Plus, player skill and team composition factor into this game a lot. Tier lists don't account for player skill, yet people follow them like gospel.

coming from a league player, this applies to smash as well

'mart better than kerbel! tear list sed so!'

[Frequency]

Also Peach's combos are loving crazy.

brb new main

[ultimamax]

i've played melee once at a birthday party so i can't say anything on that matter but i'm ranting about smash4, not melee, brawl, or 64

The concept is the same. There are stuffty garbage characters in Smash 4 too.

[Char]

i completely disagree with this post because i believe that it all boils down to skill and tier lists don't mean stuff when it comes to skill
hypothetical: ganondorf is absolute top tier whilst villager is considered to be absolute bottom
player 1 is stuff with ganon, but plays him anyways
player 2 is villager's main in which he has had many hours of experience with
who's going to win? 99% chance that player 2 will win, unless player 1 accidentally does something that forget's player 2 in the ass

like ultima said, it's not "low tiers never bear high tiers"
it's about the abilities of the character when played at an equal skill level
plus, skill isn't everything.
skill can overcome your character's flaws to an extent, but some characters are just more rewarding for skill
plus, you need to account for things like "how does this character fare against others" and "how do different stages affect the character and its matchups"
and some characters have randomness to their moves

you're half right with this
tier lists would have to test each character vs each character to see which one is disadvantaged against the other between top-skilled players
again, skill is everything

which is what they have done, because tier lists are based off tournament results
and again, other factors beside skill are character matchups and stage picks, and your character's own flaws

like, let's talk melee why are roy and marth so far apart on the tier list? what if you could learn to play Skilled Roy? surely tiers dont exist??!!
well, for starters, marth's floatiness compared to roy gives him the edge in comboing and escaping combos. roy cannot even attempt his dair off the stage or he will die. roy's faster falling speed also leaves him more susceptible to combos, i believe
marth's dair is a powerful spike (in the NTSC versions, anyway) that can be easily comboed into. roy's dair is unreliable, a meteor smash (so it can be meteor canceled) and is hard to hit without SD'ing. and i dont think it can be reliably comboed into.
what about their different sword properties? well, marth's sweetspot is on the tip, so roy's is easier to hit, right?
well, being close up also means your opponent can hit you. marth's sweetspots are safer, and he has the tools to keep people at that spacing (unlike smash 4). plus, roy's sourspots are abysmally weak, and probably don't even combo well  until high percents. marth's sourspots are more powerful (they can actually KO), and some serve comboing purpose.
back to recovery. marth falls more slowly, so he can get more horizontal endurance. plus, the side B will stall him in the air longer
roy falls pretty fast, his side B isnt as effective in stalling, so he ultimately can't survive off the stage well
marth's up B is also more useful. the one powerful hit can be used as a combo finisher or a surprise hit. roy's multi hit up B deals fixed knockback, and the first hit will only KO the lightest characters (and i think you can DI out of it)
in the end, spending the same amount of time on marth would prove far more useful than roy. you would need significantly more skill/effort to win with roy

there's a lot of things that make roy objectively worse than marth, just check http://www.ssbwiki.com/Roy_(SSBM)#Differences_from_Marth for a more detailed list

perhaps later i will talk about a smash 4 example that you would have more experience with

also this is like the sixth edit but if there are any errors i typed this at 1am on my phone

[Julius The 1st]

to add onto what Char said, take a look at Sheik: it's because of her that most of the lower tiers are often nonviable.  Ganon vs Sheik is a very difficult matchup because Ganon doesn't have the tools nor the options to approach safely unless the Sheik screws up in some big way.  It may not be the BIGGEST matchup disadvantage, but Sheik has a positive MU against all the lower tiers in Melee.

Now in Smash 4, technically any character can be viable.  There isn't quite such a domineering gatekeeper as in Melee, but with all of the characters similarly "balanced" some characters have an edge above others.  Marth's sword in smash 4 has the range of a butterknife compared to his previous iterations and has way more ending lag.  the Doc has trouble recovering, as does Ganon.  They are both slow and can't necessarily follow up on combos -- strings, whatever.  The fact that some other characters don't have these issues automatically makes them worse in comparison.  Speaking of ending lag and issues of approaching, Zelda is oft considered the worst.  Her recovery is good, but she doesn't have much in terms of RELIABLE kill options.  Farore's Wind out of shield is probably the best confirm she has, but the chances of landing it with the strong hitbox is slight what with the shieldstun update.

Anyhow, I can ramble on for longer and I haven't particularly read much of the discussion, but what I can gather from it is that someone said "tier lists are dumb."

Tier lists exist as a general spread of MUs and results.  The list isn't the end-all-be-all to which character will always win what matchups: e.g. Ice Climbers are lower on the list than Sheik, but ICs have a very favorable matchup.  There are similar situations such as Fox/Puff, but Puff has the tools to be able to at least deal with fox which is why puff is also high/top tier.  Lower tiers generally don't have those tools.

[Tetris]

can we do a melee tournament soooooooon

[naturemon]

coming from a league player, this applies to smash as well

'mart better than kerbel! tear list sed so!'

Jesus, I'm not understanding why it's so difficult to just accept that there are characters worse than other characters. You can even look at it from an unbiased standpoint and take two good characters and really look at what they can do. Lets take Captain Falcon vs Mario. Theoretically Mario should win, now lets not look at tier lists at all and think about why: Mario has a projectile, that alone makes it more difficult for Captain Falcon to get to Mario without having to Shield/take damage. Captain Falcon's recovery also isn't the best, so when off stage falcon can't do too much to more should he get him off stage, Mario, having a slightly better recover would be able to challenge Falcon offstage simply because of how Captain Falcon's recovery works and how it doesn't directly have a hitbox. They both have around equal kill power on stage but overall Mario has a clear advantage, there's nothing that can be said to make this untrue however either player can come out on top by just being better than the other, however, if even I'd bet on the Mario.

[Niff]

My favorite part about recent pm is that pretty much everyone is balanced for the most part

But yeah teirs are important but skill is also important

[naturemon]

My favorite part about recent pm is that pretty much everyone is balanced for the most part

But yeah teirs are important but skill is also important

Well the thing is tiers aren't exactly important at all. Some players will just be better at a character because it suits their playstyle better, but trying to say the gap between characters doesn't exist at all is kinda ignorant.

[PJ Boy]

I'll just leave this here.